Based on YFull date estimates, the lineages below E-Z5018 appear to have experienced major diversification events in 1800 BC and again in 1200 BC.
At the beginning of this period FGC11457 appears to have entered a 600 year long bottle neck in the Balkans. Then in 1200 BC the MRCA founded a succession of lineages stretching from the Balkans to Poland and Scandinavia.
Using YFull sample data, Y84587 appears to have gone straight to Scandinavia while FGC11450 appears to have diversified in Poland before reaching Scandinavia.
What was happening between Germany, Poland and Scandinavia in 1200 BC?
The most unprecedented battle of Bronze Age northern Europe, The Tollense River Battle.
“About 3200 years ago, two armies clashed at a river crossing near the Baltic Sea. The confrontation can’t be found in any history books—the written word didn’t become common in these parts for another 2000 years—but this was no skirmish between local clans. Thousands of warriors came together in a brutal struggle, perhaps fought on a single day, using weapons crafted from wood, flint, and bronze, a metal that was then the height of military technology. “
“At the time of the battle, northern Europe seems to have been devoid of towns or even small villages. As far as archaeologists can tell, people here were loosely connected culturally to Scandinavia and lived with their extended families on individual farmsteads, with a population density of fewer than five people per square kilometer.”
“And yet chemical tracers in the remains suggest that most of the Tollense warriors came from hundreds of kilometers away.”
“DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia. “
The subclades of E-FGC11457 have very little presence or diversity in Germany. If they were among the warriors fighting at the Tollense River, could their loss in this battle have prevented them from diversifying in Germany? Or did their victory secure their passage north to a pacified Scandinavia?
What does seem clear is that these lineages did somehow become established in Scandinavia no earlier than 1200 BC. The presence of Scandinavian Z38485 in Scotland could then have been a Viking Age newcomer.
It will be interesting to see what Y-DNA is found in Tollense and how the tree on YFull develops.
7 thoughts on “E-FGC11457 Bronze Age Migrations from the Balkans to Scandinavia via Poland”
I have haplogroup E-FGC11457 (with negative test on FGC11451) and Mr. FGC11457, FGC11451, BY4914, BY19731.
MR.have the modal south Balkan haplogroup (13, 13, 30, 24, 10, 11, 13) and dys511=10.
I have Anglo Saxon with dys511=9.
We both have 13/11 on dys 388/439. Dys 388=13 is exceptional with a very slow mutation. Dys 388 change from 12 to 13 by Mr. Perhaps is this a founder effect.
Conclusion: This is an assumption
In the Balkan was an founder effect (dys388=13) perhaps in the Caucasus like in an other haplogroup. From there goes the father from Mr. through Italy (Sicily) to Spain.
My father (dys388=13) goes direct from the Balkan (Bulgarian) to the Scandinavian and from there to England and then to Belgium?
We have practically the same name
Following info above we are not farmers but fighters.
I haven’t mention the name of mister(I think this is personal.
My SCHUETZ / SCHüTZ have a terminal FGC11447, apparently followed a similar route from the Balkan, but veered to Lithuania. From circa 1750 they were craftsmen, neither farmers nor business people.
William Schuetz, I also have a terminal FGC11447. My father’s autosomal DNA results are heavily Baltic (Lithuanian). My suspicion is that our line went from the Balkans, through Poland, to Sweden and then returned across the Baltic to be found among the Yatvingians/Sudovians. This may be too much speculation on my part, but it seems to fit. My Rutowicz/Rutavičius and Misiukanis ancestors were born within sight of Yatvingian hill-forts.
re: Tried contacting you via Email, but apparently I had the wrong (Fresno) John Rutowicz.
I am in Niles, Michigan. I am also on Ancestry, Family Tree DNA, and My Heritage.
Hello John Rutowicz:
As the saying goes – I’m late in responding.
My terminal DNA remains FGC-11447.
Our Euro ancestors were in similar Northern Euro, Lithuania, Poland, etc
areas. My paternal grandmother Bertha
WOTTRICH was from somewhere there.
In Niles, Michigan, my maternal kin were
SARGENT/SERGEANT circa 1840, and nearby MEREDITH, MORTON, TORREY
I’m adjacent Oakland/Richmond, Calif.
You said that you have positive FGC11457 and negative FGC11451. Did I understand you correctly? Is that so? In this case, you have a very rare Y-DNA-haplogroup – E-FGC11457*.
Marс, where did you test your DNA? In what company? Have you Big Y500 or Big Y700 tests? If yes, then I advise you to transfer your SNPs data (.CSV) on the YFull https://www.yfull.com/ А computer software will place your haplotype on the correct branch of Y-Tree. It will help you to understand more accurately the origin of your paternal line. In addition to modern haplotypes, there are ancient haplotypes on YTree too.
For example, here is the branch E-FGC11451 on which my haplotype (id:YF97503) is: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11451 /
Best regards, Sergei L.